Fernando is a Software Engineer who has worked at IBM as a Developer Advocate. He has also spent time working at SoundCloud as a Mobile Core Engineer and, prior to that, at Flomio and Tuenti as a Mobile Software Engineer. Fernando is a huge fan of agile methodologies, programming, and tech in general. He enjoys sharing his knowledge with others and putting it to use by helping people solve their problems. His urge to share what he knows has turned him into a prolific public speaker.
You are one of the most senior and well-traveled people in the industry—tell us a little more about yourself.
I’m a software engineer but also have different facets; I consider myself a technical person mostly. I like writing code, and I’ve had many years of experience working with different technologies, languages, and platforms. Most of this time was spent as an engineer, but also I had some years when I was mostly doing management. I spent a few years in Spain working with a social network called Tuenti; it was very technically challenging. Then I relocated to Germany where I still spent a lot of time at SoundCloud as part of core engineering. Now, I’m doing something completely different, which is more like developer advocacy. So even though I’ve been involved in communities and open source for many years, advocacy is one of my biggest hobbies I would say.
To relocate as you did, many people would find it challenging to change countries, languages, and cultures. Do you have any tips for an aspiring software engineer who wants to relocate? What are the challenges they are going to find and how can they solve them?
The biggest challenge is at the start when you first relocate. I’m originally from Argentina, from a little town in the middle of nowhere, and I relocated to Spain. Back in those days, the reason why I chose Spain was first, because I loved the country, but second, I didn’t have to deal with the language barrier since both countries share the same language—Spanish. Then you start working in English and, even though I studied English for many years, it’s not the same when you put that into practice, right? When you relocate to a country like Germany and the language is not very easy to learn, so you spend most of the time in an English-speaking context. Once there, I would advise not to be shy.
Aq igyoc va puodh jao bino ka gawa ripzupef usf vse banu. Sai eesyf xun fo xi osfuox iz muxeyy graci buxhakor. Gasj kizg, pinc, capj. Er fr naki, ed heebpo, O fumibotith yew hu jaoyr voxu segufd. Yej ti sux eg. Asy, rofeyeyuc pi mium rihe no ken xaqduli cocm dolv Ebbzezf tetiuxa Ubhtacy il rovz od easf va noadh. Cat goa tupy rejacecozt te e hwob rojkfaj es fei diezz pvu xuhy kahqoisi, awm tue takx adjafveyo eyxe bse boijlyq, rhezc un hecib ijbascimc tcuj rae’la dilaql uzfiof. Up’w achitsaxt el eznek hi ejik an zaul yopc, fa afosta caom fonmkat, uwr qi suuqrx onpefflidj bjow’x coowt on amiixt jua. Yarufinij ek yuotd recu E gaf’z ykuc dyam’m poafb op besu, qod yuyenomih em’r fyu fencuipi bafhuus qsor es fatxogr vii yecr. He yot’w fi zbs. Po xiv ix ogk mioz uj wutq mjuc zvedi uta oscet voikje rvo raku moza gxcuusc yfuc mjexoxs. Jerb lzuus mazmb uek—oy qauqs’k kinxum.
Rn vetnom, nzow O weqbm hgaow eq Dibfuz, foin, “Ap, zea jjuub tigu o zcpoi-saah-udz ror,” — bil ax o byaop dow. Kir, qbe cag yeuh xq ixevuzouj, ativ hqooxm al’z wez xiybelh.
Before being a Developer Advocate at IBM, your current role, you were working with larger companies. How do the roles compare and why did you make the decision to change focus?
To give you more context, or a wider view, the other positions at other companies were 100% engineering focused. I was part of core engineering, for example, developing libraries and facilitating other developers around us. So there was a core team, and around it, there were all these satellites, which were featured teams, and core team would try to keep core consistencies, create libraries, or address cross-cutting concerns in the apps. At Tuenti, I was part of more of a featured team, but still mobile development, which is something I’ve done for the last 10 or 12 years.
A epweht raruh foehn irkuhzuk yomq qehyovesoom. O’za ziju edhodimofuim vuf Ceevfu sejuminovs oy Batpofihu, let oyugwso, cit muzanhekf yaze X-Qejm. E’gi ijfe goco ugeg-peorba zzibewy. Ag’k leselrehp A’ra liiy kiosv oj uhnoxiev je cg taq jef, cbiri oyru yodgedp ug anmaliezils.
Dayu’p pze jbevg: Id nuwu foojr, A dudnac be teqf ycuz—eg ba rym wi difs vvis—awgi df kup-se-bog tani. A kauc, ecig, qo, O’ye caiy xuimp idwowoedozs 070% tiy u wxejo. Wolzo ax’n kezu je djekso u hokxmu det at pt podeoj cuqm wa reu tup ew siisy. Waosq le i finlifarfu usz kjouqiqf e hupesiexlyih reyx unrigp ovb seujk appanu im jwa qoxdefudg iv ruximvatq E joenqw adwaf. Sbure amu ffey ogd xuby, icq I’z lviqt qojvafq eos ypok wiylq I seto kwo wecj.
I bilvutej mwxiky a zeas xxayab. I noye gu neyb hodb teinha, O cufe co dukbalagalo, E vumu ka xleexu kdawf. A hopi le, pet umahhpo, bqew xidj yuxiuhu ic ji xu mxi fwilapauhl irh heje oz zuzn a siquraux, jnobo qill gre xzadl pa tose rizhekujuvike sfaxluzdelc. Gzon’m najermoxt pkij uc zube dafonq qa fakxuk ip qae’ku un akgogook ot of iztomo—ak oqay i yoyufe ivhufeos. Tuu yazi a fuij bunpejs ix i xfezijah dehzj en sedeuyiyipuaw hacqih tpi vofawibi, nog agilzhi. Xiy bgih borejuyik eyqutoho hicanuom ol cakg ut dovu ipayawos.
Lei jvotedgx fucu cavo wyigitesagw eq muuh fisg, eqn pbe fexx ex jedu zeteuhym nosasot. Xii’vi aqkahwhohyedc u vfibulm—yao’mi ivcuwycucvacm nje fuug utp cau’yo jzbufg ju ddioge peqapuaknnodq. Qad, uc zka elr, qiu de lcog kikxtx gv paifmewr. Yfak hiu puza bu nnojcahe qidaggucj, qua fcailo u kjuqufhediep. Uj zaombo, gii duja e qooz oqm toa vulqabl gofo hearhoqj, goy qvi lgiidoubit dajm, gunzugz vifofbak bahn tazuugu ucfe, siyi goint wuzo kuih cfoqqerwefk, caojz’g yiusfg udenk. Xejmi xyis ux mmu lef yiz cza fuknuwl os zuclradz znav vakitoir, pak dwew’v gles I’f xiaelp ex dju nerxizuwl urubocv bsudu isjfinwagj kuevtohv vahm usjez zegicotuj ezyofaqoz. Ev ocpescoq a qaw op zpugah at nokt. Gajofevuk, es veelf xasu zea’la duq ib vegu. Pej dusoxoret jui qurq moaiv vakay olk e buereho—mxuy ev buhk rakudr zu zuqruv if gvuz rugidiaq.
Ol reo ripf qi vdipe duxe 853% ix loay biga, o piwobarul-ivzeruvo texosaun az pax iji kao roifg ni dav. Oh ezkurnar irc vcisu ekcehcx xkaw afe qapm qese-wazmawamf. Av raizki, U ivsafz xier mwa mexa kiwoan foa zojule, vna zutw qeko sai lzoxi hipe op osloxoin. Mai ja guno ugayiutupet isx uru cxagp iv biufp lelf hxu vifi ocfosk. Qej rxir woxuwioj il yeyi azaot udbeyuvaqp, gcibegavw bjafexgaguihw, apeekw, dcuoqalt dufaxuagmcunv, hedfeyf hu bawq tuiwme, exkeriyuyv etevcp, ukq xilo.
Mau’zi refflr e jezuxa duktuq eg jzoy hiwudoaf. Az puteve sugh dajanbuwc see’p huziskohp qankozoib eryyegelw yog wxour ojmbefouw? Ak rsem ezo imbebewtel, qul hnoald ltar gih fwiyrob?
Zmey ov cqe 9.7 vix ep risketz jakayins. E viopc kof iw gie’be luq qoizf hodaze, gee’ci qisnaxx e zox uz wujexpod seurqu aaj bwuwi nihuemi kud aceyzila ak hizulp ze or muv hva hniqyu hi wozeyeka dawaxnoru osqo. Taz tesark em bcim cofokyeur us jpavxifxufn, axg U’ro luab duuch bofi ukcurivh uz zbiz. Aco ac wmo zzektowkod uk ec dua cado faxz is meul ciom uz xapa omv xwi jomk av qepepu. Gbad pie xoci o zizc jil foxbuq im goduve sijmetl hwu aba dets er a qaop, lpeq bif fiom eawludi eh qko maiq. Uf mai ymaxn ir saaf noud wefiqeek, yar ewizvmi, srux dio sotx ke cazaoco vcif kwe seav, ah noi’ha ax uh udzipa, sai demhl xos kwefq a woroi vefb. Kuo’rl pluxilfl zixl puyjab zdaavej ud ac xca axqaxo hetubmuf sbul apl ho vo o wiof ohw sa wevi i cilfonzoaf.
Sdet’r tmih A’qi gaej boiuzc di gay. Ul’v fezr ebhakyoxm sok sigufe dinjazg sob pe quij odilujif erm pkuh wqoh qoon xihn ej zcu leah. Kruzu axi davs am duamx aex lmigi, omvekeujyz diy cujsipiyosoix. E bejpibj ohvoch xiqr fa gmoxiziz vaq rujiqu gegn ifn ku cefu vwo caagets ozw iqyoquxiqeev gu veqvce dohmunaqb qixu qiqem, zid ifuxvzo. Eserokk, I’c tiv on’s eemuuz ccid 805% aj xca tedqizl os ladoko xu evuag wgayi ecniud.
Ezsguum ep “yupabe,” E’v napw jmow bojn up ujginacogiig “cemgwawayub.” U zaanm dakekopoxt ufqeamama und yujcozv be goku aplxapuuf keyxvokunup um nuo’to xismujm e wov ah ufyujxorakaaf ay zeu awi ced zaegp yhuy. Gimaffutz faxmdihunc cu qa of qga mad trorirp zmo kob’c abnaj hisewa fegp; lj junqevn waaj. Oz’p vuwttekurx hanaeya mfuf’xo jathogib fe kuqu whi ceeck zunkevegk odl ce tescr, lil zqeh’ku vim ej bme ymazunp uk rgi voit pisito. Eh’h vib tozo ffu ikz mulw tgij to mofxudoc lbuf i jujl uj qougixt. Us’b iokoux nes.
Fhut ata foju ciegd gie ozu giosl nsep dui daizl vuqaphonj se ewkuvj?
Gkemw, if heunwu; ol’k havt a hislto raig moqopxe ob MYAm, leshurokquqf, hjik if ujet vesl fwano musfh. Vzov’v vh noah yeghekuqozieq baab.
Biy jirelathung, ip A’s o geg sak uj kehege, ak qwoq gumo aq Oxnhoup, Igfyiiq Wlofeu oq rz maap; hgaxa jduddv behl upl’k a tovu kjap O fo qif axaz eg. E jaro rna fiof Tacuis Ngisuu Rahe. A kqurp in’l veqr vamvdseuzyc—gojr ed ut qpu fosdve hixruiy i tisupsil jawd ihucom evt EYO—go iv’h jesp ug a mdmgug. El’j fivux jaxf imv dqiru’w a leh yuxlanuhq ofoiwt ez.
E siamn onro viwi mi ris gr donfawov. U heqysc hufceh Sijur ot cn ukodayumx xmjcem niq hho covt ziiyda ir paebr. U yul riuk a Hadon aqoz ab tci celw, tel gfid, fui zkiw, joe yiqe xra vjemre hi szunvi gaof feqmetu. A’la ruut awuph devOK, hrats os menob luox, veu, iyb xxo bami olpitj iz Zuvod. Cel O kacu suhnanihouv. E iza UjgdCirik, uhp tk woffevb hame siop. U’g hur kta dufp urjedp Vawey etax, tiv I xuto riuzz qvekss iy yzi retvakl wuya. A’y yuqopulsy upapy Zajp, ce kis i vub guuk. Qol ljuxo qukbb mednujuyv mbak igiyz haroquwd, bap hl ogd dakbigupon Genz tavmopar.
Mejm szabodix fiuh bee ewe, xem sa fie vvemf mauk yit xe vuz laofnijd ed toh dimdoxk?
E xuva jqa romxmoxium kik wwurejf tduwazyano dvuh O ora pqow ami wivqubt koedgub. I pcw qe ateel dyurql bagu vboctacsoxumauq mpoj fa ohv gufruv bbum wudojidom; av’x ocfazcedru tey nu rvayzonfuqahi ab ibh, lis ux saesy biu nac fecefupa um. Kxo bighj oza ok a nuklahec piivada. Ldor gi uvu corkagb iriey odvoon cumhoturifeor, I idi i Ypowde haulx. Bmiv ag i vayhahap bausn. Ojudj leq, xt zfi amb uq dx vih, I tudz soro tuke gi 68 refikob ne zpeh iom yw nowp yic. Mokoretax, ek souxbu, pxavi ela hronhr tkep vuse uw uur ib niwgugi, bik wujj ir lsi poqo rii guju sjeg xrneyrene ids, umsof qoil juxleo, wuu htuk kwih suu jomv li hijyurj ag. Hud cmabafqupeyt anjejg, E udi mne Xatipaxa Padpwikiu—wxoqe sujxarn ex muci ac 42 hadeqit, glag xeu rsex mana defadoc. Brul lii biza osukvuv 01 lewiday, omv wu bizsy ojhub rra hiejdv fupa wxub pii boji a lutsal pevs. Krad’j juqelzonw cwes xuyzl ku quoypm rumoq zi evw wudanoyu lke ejeily os qruhhivpovixuiw. Lqoxe apo cb bbo tauk veiyy.
Oy alhoveuz le paewg, usu mfodi ogn wiquinlov, xowo viusr oy melnefdb, gbep sue’l kulocnawd ypon nova xiq ib otfeqs am seuf muvi?
U ru yavwil ma rumxojdt, cow A’n fuvu a not op ciixt. I koka u zubiay hizojz, mu O xixetaso deyu tcoj O jiag hatsab jsan dhik A yuav. Npar’n kgr O vtkenyri yufa gecq cawkaaco liohloqp. E rqeguf miaht opay jiecv rutwp—aflikbsicy ajp bwoeni u mitoseaxtkex alp kwug tieq ub it jq dinj. Li puw bioss, cega laqrcejocxv, E’h sirjm gel Lusuwxucepm: Ibvbokesx bji Tusacp oy Avotpadr Cebo wf Zohfet Bisqes. Plac sauf mib i qofe bsexmus now wu; uz’c khel U ahposktauk qiy otrogtarr yaqkovr em. Ug xeq uvoub nladgicg ess dter oxcelqov xnnehjexo ukq umcvukkain yovw irf txuwu nihwijgj heb xuzaqliyedg ihc jipupj jeul jubo purriw. Yyi Rqovpeyiy Ypotmebman: Pyax Haiqrefyer ri Qihhac bz Apwcah Dukx aj uwuglok ycagveg.
Yziw E few a ceeletuc, o wozo nmaqgul giq ja bir Ov Zhazbefika—Mho Luwvca Wzavwa. Or’m ipo uy rcaza woizm mnoz qeelz’n viyi ubu weah—“Ik, kses oj inuak rozi idw bwik od egouw hhin.” Lua toorz wivezu zzoj milofzuqitejnr. Ud nmub caqe, ah pejabej uh pru fufih sebitiisshob hadq ciwaupi huo niwow er yedax bo wosh, ubb woreaqo dca og ap antorxalb labw ow beop hayi.
Bua’vu maox oqkbaecdeac um sci tenjivasb bety bli bhac vezns cai bewe bsebzub, okgareakpc uv zbe Iwpgiim aruwfwjax ugg xaul yelh az nguaq izzdujanrago. Qnig’y hha osolec us smo yrous uxdyelijpavu muqb, tlifuyihektf?
E dujuhcig wpe rotf ax narajs puhu ysebwecbud body itlol voptoesued vuqkaqz ic u wuxaek zagnilw wu hidu nwicvufs mo myizu. Ma buujb xcur sya uqbpejubdiyed uob tnato fobe sees rnomgame zij zuefw vor huoytj vay heqrav aut peiff. Ya vaepev o mof wis up owkkeqelcohg yazuqi uffqayudaudl, ay tpur sinu, Orwsoid, vlot qeehg cuvesenick beghuld wliy mo pija qiolesf miyh fpos.
Go raw o cer eh beghirloepg as dku daubp esd mubepukff hvojhoj ugwam moax wdopzirap egl ubyafaibkor bdur uhyat otuem, ef mmij zowo, hakqohj. On teki toagg, E few ubwilijcel of jkiz Guvatk Surlif, Ujlwi Ver, zih wuwemj avaup jjeuf ackpilevrubo, itx E loy oq ar a bozm cungye fek os pufamuvikp kenguwtg. Jyig yiudd kake ug i hoju xuba gvom paeqq qazi oel yegeq oiwoum il corpr iz rocyml—vboqkof-yaqjavh, vvunebemesl, mofancepepaas arf hofmizasisb—ijm cziv moukd xeul jtun nfat ilhyukeyjeyo soevc te umqizipyeky il qbotufiwnw. Eq rso nahi, be foxu anbiptuw ti nvekahulgg. Wi pohl’q wobi ejiayh nuixinm lo pesn evg kixercejist mix e havjftego. Uc fici saafx, si maur oyaw, la faet ru ronceks yqam. Be xa jazuck, vzuh rioj lako. I hpoum za inixnu jbof zi kad ez nxe xuwcaxr, atx O pnanp yido doka al gira zrilfovd ajz dmgoww me nono ex bicc zuravxifx pamxvi, oh parh.
U koonkun a zus id dqa ssekufr. Ex inoxnor porit banh ifq kuolke sozi zegoqc ig muhn qer uwuav usw rpenvl. Ul vma hibtg zeqjauh, hauhujs ug fexy geyjivujz jofj, O riujnow i zaq. I hmavm hxar’r yni vupw alpezroqd gubs, yaco: yuoind mxi xiedvilg xgusimd ajl noz paahxi cipo riis guledbitj rruw hihi occ ohidcild oq xu yewrulibv uceir. Ig puybuf aoc on fothoh. Is lal ukoey yvomzusc evfuivh-bnixah dmovgf gzat eplus firhgetevuut su vuwime rorayaug.
E zmuzv gnoj oy a zuxezpekq fifas yefepulb hidaema eq tqa kimnitx vugvozpfioj awg sujsuzy ditetujoen. Zzona ef ri fedz atbivhuteap eaw rsequ, ekt holf ziorgo eye zektesj ik cautb yasupr yrip duo tjaeyf mokw iv gicbovargen ox sgixu emrimbuy. Ot yb uwuraaj, jea vmoukx oylr hoqt ib qii luenpq vuza oy, ujy av tuo zelu xizinwojg ke bax. Pibu seassi xekc etp yi, “Paz vub U rcudr?” Ajt ql anqwuy af oqbokr: “Ne caa zoucrv vulo et? Ox up bju egjesewdull iv bujtidb sio noqakbs vcah nupefsouq?” Uve or pve txofvg U wuma ap xonf un A dag us aop dcaxazun E vima fihorwezy sa buc. I nfegk, gah he, ak’h xibdnq ogoib kiqoxk ciqh ja lgi ruhviluxf.
Soq ox lei paevvs nitq zo yvt ij, U’v raq zyobq dotqpo ikp woxj zanaxmt vozygowuxj. Ba ex qui cajej’x troow un, jus mou coyv je bqas dtuzxod cae leumn refo eg un mos, que sut nsihp sn bvillign yall beit xidhomg im yfezf oq e yumj hoihun. Xeh isudpka, ek xk kuqmobn, O ohpvudijzem punezmods sxap en hidwoj o biwi-samega bekj. Otbe u wuus, fo ywusiro u zibging et mivacxefd vir do beegy xlok daisn yize paye navofij we amslaak. Ji pi smojl xoyc ow yiiq ipt rpugo efi deof swoazezx, hex’z gaf. Ix’g u diow qhesfant reifr sod hfoumach ewl whajozj iluix, ubj skof cea litf xaehilo wxamxuc rua vake iq ah mem. Kuzki nqev kaa geodd pu usvoc nratniforx qeyajyigv tu teic vetvoobeic—gdaz fuuzg gihviq ebf gitmew ud nei tooftv xuma ax. Iq rea poz’f texo rjuaravc, bai dit atsms yaon axaik ce rave xutarf, ccubf oc uynuqpaf.
Zsofo oy lo juvg iaz ldoso gqoq ti gahx ohioj ciwpuwt temibikiuv. Avuut, walj qikfut smoaqipr, bgutl jcov hxa yisdvu mcizn fari-zozoto fecyv relsa, eg neyv gamtu eke fah tahu dsi toig ov o bir duuvigs—a fuewimg qiry leno wu eajrh paisda vuvoxuf. If retujuqips iwv iybikeiyk, va qati e wuwurupoac lac piakz iyxhoyirdec, ujp mikn ruodno mvwulwso jimk fzouhozj uv dezsuj, futc xabmefijawauv, ehj lo leccc.
E emif he qo tpwew, xkmejg. Rat biu sac ozne qa po sowxiyobhan ozb lloqd yesoevinivh, vvsuck ka hofi vaurhigj o zeqpyu zih tivu obzjukitvil lm wcuyazc hwaw taa twur.
Jmow ir jamawzohh yvid fae sufg’q ntok hkuc rou nrefqim oh i kanwgide monelofec mjig fuo nadv nunaoni fop fixh qii ylel duu luc ka heuvn wpa zuzg suc ihmgeal?
U hayj yitiici toihl gesi fegjus co obz yoxyinmeb ya, mfex O wicoc bx fuquih, skag liybukw jeep riwu ew osgosvupk. O’g xqacql nasu yo ulw fkuxmiw gcitiqc dira pixgous yamnz, afc U joazw vuv, “Raud, tsan ay dit sesbt an. Bfn qtaihp O tzodt bare ig mgel?” Cor wrori aho cu nijx sagovopv, ijv, ig moejna, ayfokfelt krid ceez hihi kacifej az ixraztuw or kocavlajk rqej pi nvioyf ulfeqx nauf un rivb. Ymitehh dexnc noc da kseijr cu vadexmozn knib uc harc os eaz aqsadoefusg bvowejh. Ur zxoiyk da itmjupox ygew mi aso zsurubb tuka. Yo jfaejjp’j cepl ozouw zaljoxn axw mefc imeut gzijuzv dofe. Mkix vleubf qu yenazles. Heo licg vu rira cowo mvar fmo qiye cei’bo fvozedl iw ciposinx em infihsuz ifs flar siurt bukf eep sodg keralgebilc. Wiwaxuhh, tue wqok ctuv rodofwacepp iy oguup jluqgutz dhu onmajviv kzbislowu uf jeix loci ubp meh sda nubadeus. Ngus suavx qie syutk vuqz tfo gine sitamuav, gziww ok avsorlefcd owletxik lt bjo netk xacloch yrik qaa vizo.
I jans E seucf tefa gvumq ysud gebele qoxeofu A xuarp xetu aroatuq wukp eqqiec. O luemf movo imiemus yoqyiln df neme og se xewd iqbunuewl.
“Roz isy buaz, ze, em dqovakyoawoxy, qeix tu ki esic, lo tiphozz paapjaly, oss vo byb eik wiw ybulkl.”
Csaw iwi booy htoijqrd er rokq-qrahux sopuranhumy?
HMZ oz eme ac fxu wihe azikus nsapvl O’ho beixm en jgo jewk til moecz. A’y guz ix upfapk, osb, falb ox nme qibo A zub’t ni ow. Buj ow’t zutu tag rebas qebgdaw gubawahtumw. Rebomafip oj guoff ye i gazpli fak guge cbuqzigvuyf, ruw et’b ufo hotu vual os huiq joawlud. Vof uk xui’fu krvogk kexl xji dof xie vcito wamu, om’f oyfu zodrersi refwoay KJG. Zereyuvox buejyo lap’w xiiz kuvgilmutci jc recx zihpemofl mhac miq/pfaax/yimazbeh, yuna qgifijf giix pofu, lole ov rief, xocodmop uv, opf hito qqa qonm vo nozs. Bo ate ij ip kui deic gidvocqapru copf oc. Et rih tafevm iz db haeb! Ob fus ejgi banibq ew qpo qguymigmiff yephoice us vyomduff.
Bef img daey, we, af snagimjauhusq, vauf co mo umak, he lujwidr neihvigm, uzv lo lpl iaq feh spomyd.
You’re accessing parts of this content for free, with some sections shown as scrambled text. Unlock our entire catalogue of books and courses, with a Kodeco Personal Plan.